On Heartless (Community Discussion)

[Game Master]

For those of you who payed attention to the update, it goes without saying what I'm about to restate. For the rest of you, Heartless are facing a reworking that will result in a minimum of two alternate races, with as time wears on a very possible third that I am exploring. I will be discussing all three here, and I would like opinions to help flesh out what these three races will look like in their finished state. It needs to be noted that not every idea can be included, and some will be ultimately discarded. Don't take this as a personal affront. We can't do every single thing right off the bat.

So, the three races. The first two are basic races that can be accessed at the beginning. These are Pureblood Heartless and Emblem Heartless.

---

Pureblood Heartless are esoteric beings of darkness. While they are named Heartless, this is actually a misnomer. Heartless are hearts manifesting their darkness in a physical form, but due to their emotionless behavior were dubbed Heartless. These Heartless are most commonly encountered in the Realm of Darkness or areas close to darkness. At present, the following traits are planned for Pureblood Heartless:

• They an use Corridors of Darkness passively
  
• They are unaffected by abilities that play off of emotions
  
• They drain Darkness damage for Health
  
• Their Heart Element must be Darkness
  
• They can track Keyblades across all worlds passively
  
• When in areas of darkness, they gain a severe power increase
  
• All of their spells are augmented with Darkness passively
  
• Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, Heartless revive as though they have immortality
  
• A Pureblood Heartless of significant power is only created by a being with the Heart Element of Darkness who loses their Heart. When this is the case, it retains the original being's character tier, stat points, and applicable items such as Keyblade and World Leader status.
  
• They must choose one less element than normal, but one of the elements they can choose may be a Combination element without any prerequisites.
  
• Pureblood Heartless can control Heartless as though they are effectively one character tier higher
  

---

Emblem Heartless are esoteric beings of darkness. They are artificially created shells of darkness that are based on the behavior of true Heartless. They are more diverse than standard Pureblood forms, coming in a variety of shapes and colors based on the world they inhabit. These are the Heartless most commonly encountered in the Realm of Light, as this was the Realm in which they were created. The following traits are planned for Emblem Heartless:

• They can use Corridors of Darkness passively
  
• They can choose any of their four elements to be drained for Health instead of receiving damage.
  
• Their Heart element must be Darkness
  
• They can track Keyblades passively across all worlds
  
• When they capture Hearts, they do not release them into the Realm of Darkness. Instead they retain them inside of their bodies, and gain a slight increase to power for each Heart they hold.
  
• All of their spells are augmented with Darkness
  
• Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, they revive as though they have Immortality. However, all of their captured Hearts are lost.
  
• Emblem Heartless are effectively one tier higher when controlling Heartless.
  

---

Now, the third race is a prestige race, and still in concept stage. This race would be called "Seekers" in reference to Ansem. It's not fully developed yet, but what we have so far is as follows:

• They an use Corridors of Darkness passively
  
• They drain Darkness damage for Health
  
• Their Heart Element must be Darkness
  
• They can choose three combination elements to be their primaries instead of standard primal or advanced elements
  
• They can track Keyblades across all worlds passively
  
• When in areas of darkness, they gain a severe power increase
  
• When Seekers capture Hearts, they do not release them into the Realm of Darkness. Instead they retain them inside of their bodies, and gain a slight increase to power for each Heart they hold.
  
• All of their spells are augmented with Darkness passively
  
• Unless destroyed by a Keyblade, Seekers revive as though they have immortality
  
• A Seeker is created when a being with significant power and Darkness in their Heart willingly forfeit their Hearts to the darkness. At tier three, a character who willingly succumbs to the Darkness becomes a Seeker and will retain all of their Skill Trees and Keyblades.
  
• Seekers can control Heartless as though they are effectively one character tier higher than they truly are.
  

---

These are not the final products, but they are fairly close. What I want to ask is what your thoughts, as a community, are on these?

[Zyvonia]

tl;dr: doesn't seem like there are enough differences to justify two separate classes, imo

getting power from hearts could be easily abused via NPCs.

[Kaleido_Krystal]

Should strong Purebloods really be allowed to keep World Leader status? After all, they are a completely different person/being, it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Also, I'm unsure if they should be able to drain darkness (at least most of them.) The closest thing we have to using darkness on a Heartless is Riku's Dark Form/Dark Sleights in Chain of Memories, which didn't seem to make much of a difference.

[Alexander]

There aren't a lot of differences, but the differences that do exist are big enough to make them feel different imo.

And that's an acceptable thing, though. If T5s can give T1s weapons, why would it matter if a person could take hearts from NPCs, especially when the average NPC is still on the same level as a T1 character minimum? I personally don't think it really makes a difference.

In terms of keeping world leader status, I really can't say. I guess it depends on how they justify it. Then again, the Nobody would probably wind up keeping the status so, probably a good idea to not let that one be a thing.

I'm neutral on the Drain. Nobodies have immunities to their chosen Element so this is basically that but more extreme, and has a little bit of basis with things like Green Rhapsody. Though, that was just magic in general.

I'm more curious about the combination elements, myself. I want to see how that can of worms works out. Also, do seekers also keep their Character Tier?

[Kaleido_Krystal]

In terms of keeping world leader status, I really can't say. I guess it depends on how they justify it. Then again, the Nobody would probably wind up keeping the status so, probably a good idea to not let that one be a thing.

So long as they can justify it I don't really see a problem. However, I'd have to apply the concern to Nobodies myself, though that debate will be for another time when/if we discuss Nobodies.

[Lenneth]

So is it possible for character to become emblem heartless and keep all there stuff? Also I think they should passive gain simalair power gain like the other heartless do like maybe the closer they are to their orginal world? The heart stealing is nice but could take more effort for simalar effects

For seekers do all their elements outside heart one have to be combination or normals/advenced? Or can we mix and match.

And did we lose the abililty to ghost like possess objects and sense how strong a person was based on their hearts?

[Game Master]

A character can not become an Emblem Heartless. A Somebody can split into a Nobody and a Pureblood. An Emblem Heartless is created. As such, I wouldn't grant them bonuses to their original world since they have no world of origin other than the hidden labs of Radiant Garden.

They can choose either or.

As for the latter two abilities, they were merely overlooked. It is likely that only Purebloods will retain possession as a trait, but likely in their final forms all Heartless will retain the ability to determine Character Tier through sensing hearts.

[Raid Controller]

A character can not become an Emblem Heartless. A Somebody can split into a Nobody and a Pureblood. An Emblem Heartless is created. As such, I wouldn't grant them bonuses to their original world since they have no world of origin other than the hidden labs of Radiant Garden.

If there's no canons, wouldn't the emblem Heartless, and therefore the hidden labs, not exist? After all, it was Apprentice Xehanort who has the claim on manufacturing them to start, with the machine shown in the first installment of the Kingdom Hearts franchise and the remaining Ansem reports. Emblem Heartless didn't appear until after Xehanort's experiments, though Pureblood Heartless still existed (though were significantly less common until the fall of Radiant Garden.)

[Zyvonia]

Actually, I'm writing a rough draft to explain this. I've just been busy all week and haven't able to finish it.

Basically, what it says is:

The Mirage Hearts is considered an Kingdom Heart AU, or Alternate Universe. What this means is that while we are in the same universe as the Kingdom Hearts franchise, there several differences in major events where our universe is ultimately different than the original, canon KH universe. Some major events may have had a different outcome, or not have happened at all. Consequences and results may have also been different, leading to a different evolution of the universe and history. For example, perhaps Traverse Town had fallen to Darkness before Sora arrived, so it, too, fell into Darkness. This would be catastrophic, as that would mean any survivors of fallen worlds would have no place to go, and Sora would have never been able to leave Destiny Islands when it fell.

Mirage Hearts takes place during Birth By Sleep, rather than at the end of Dream Drop Distance. The Keyblade War has long since passed and while Keyblade Warriors exist, they mostly exist inside of Keyblade Unions, and are comparatively few. And the biggest difference between KH and MH is that while the X-Blade, Keyblade War, and Keyblades exist, Kingdom Hearts original characters do not. While we are in the era of BBS Terra, Ventus, and Aqua do not exist, nor do Sora, Riku, or Kairi, or even Master Xehanort. This is the defining feature of MH that sets it apart from KH and makes it a true AU of the Kingdom Hearts universe. It should note that Xehenort had been replaced with a character whose name is unknown but goes by the title Magi. His motivations and goals aren't clear.

The reason that these characters are absent is because it is you who will replace them. You will have an impact on the worlds. Maybe you'll earn a Keyblade and save the worlds from Darkness, such as Sora did. Perhaps you'll fall into Darkness and become a heartless, following the same path as Xehanort. Or, you'll make your own path and be a hero (or villain) that the KH universe has never seen. It's your stage now, and there's nobody holding you back. Build your own adventure and claim the glory that comes with it.

However, while KH original characters are gone, Disney and Final Fantasy characters remain. Though, you may find that some are missing. A mysterious man appeared shortly before the story began, eliminating those of wealth and in power. The worlds are now without their age-old leaders and are lost. Some have already found new leaders, warriors who appeared from seemingly nowhere. Others are still looking. Perhaps you may be the one they choose.

[Simon]

A character can not become an Emblem Heartless. A Somebody can split into a Nobody and a Pureblood. An Emblem Heartless is created. As such, I wouldn't grant them bonuses to their original world since they have no world of origin other than the hidden labs of Radiant Garden.

If there's no canons, wouldn't the emblem Heartless, and therefore the hidden labs, not exist? After all, it was Apprentice Xehanort who has the claim on manufacturing them to start, with the machine shown in the first installment of the Kingdom Hearts franchise and the remaining Ansem reports. Emblem Heartless didn't appear until after Xehanort's experiments, though Pureblood Heartless still existed (though were significantly less common until the fall of Radiant Garden.)

...I have to admit, this is a good point. If Xehanort didn't make the Emblem Heartless, here... ...Who DID?

[Zyvonia]

I realize I misread Ari's post...huh. This brings up an interesting paradox. Even if we weren't in an AU, emblem heartless shouldn't exist yet.

[Raid Controller]

It doesn't matter. It's an AU. There can be a million justifications as to why Emblems exist. It can be one person. It can be one hundred. It could be one thousand.

The point is, they exist in the universe. Therefore, bringing the conversation back to how they function within this AU.

And if we're going to focus on what is and what isn't canon, then it should be moved to a separate topic, where it wouldn't derail the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of this thread, as I understand it, is discussing the Heartless and its functions here.

And I am arguing the case that the Emblem Heartless should not, by any purposes of what we understand to their origins, exist whether or not this is an AU. It's kind of important to acknowledge that.
I could go on with a whole bunch of other enormous holes that were overlooked that SEVERELY effect the mechanics of the site, but that's not what this thread is for. It's specifically discussing the Heartless themselves.

Whichever way you want to twist this around, the point still stands; regardless of whether or not it's an AU or not, there is ZERO defining proof that someone else could replicate Apprentice Xehanort's research and work on the heart WITHOUT Braig/Master Xehanort pushing them in the direction to do so--because that IS what happened in order to set those events into motion.
Without Master Xehanort, Terra, Braig, and effectively Terra-Xehanort, there are no Emblem Heartless. The Research of the Heart does not proceed. The experiments are never done. It's stated many times that Radiant Garden is the City of Light--which has more than one meaning. It's not eluding to the force of Light so much as it is that Radiant Garden is a world more progressive in its technologies and theories than any other known world that exists presently. (As, during the time period we're currently set as, Space Paranoids has yet to exist and The Grid has yet to be swallowed into the Realm of Sleep.) As far as we're aware, Radiant Garden is the only world that was even looking into sciences of the Heart, Light, and Darkness at this current time. Even King Mickey wasn't informed about this until much, much later in time, meaning that Radiant Garden is undisputedly the only world currently capable of generating the Emblem Heartless.
Which also means, if you're acknowledging Emblem Heartless, you're acknowledging the rest of the canon as well.

You could stick in an NPC (or several) that "stumbled upon this by accident" but honestly, how tacky would that be? You'd basically be sticking up a cardboard cutout version of a very interesting and dynamic character.

[Hugh]

Js, the argument that w/o MX's research Emblem Heartless aren't possible is dumb imo. You're literally saying no on in space time and beyond could ever create this phenomenon. No human experience is truly unique - everything can be replicated, by chance or choice. Someone else in this universe could pursue them IC if they are decided not to exist and, if they don't exist by the lore (that we don't follow anyway bc its an AU), create them (if they don't exist because site doesn't want them then they do, in fact, become an impossibility). I'm not for or against the idea tbh, I'm just saying that your particular argument doesn't really work.

Also, you assume that the creator of this site can't create an equally, if not moreso bc Xehanort is kind alame, interesting story and myriad of characters that explain the origins of Emblem Heartless in this universe.

Also, note - creation of beings of a raw element isn't hard (Vanitas did it by existing) - someone streamlining the process with science is not hard, theoretically, and anyone who understand the mechanics of heartless in character and had a knowledge of science / arcane could conceivably do this. Person + Darkness + Crane Machine Claw = Artificial Heartless.

Addendum: I'd like to note that accepting the Emblem Heartless gatewaying into the rest of the canon is also dumb. We have Keyblades and other canon things, like, you can't pick and choose. Not opposed to not having them but I am opposed for it being for a reason that doesn't really make sense. Emblem heartless are a possibility within the universe, like Keyblades and Unversed. Anyone made in a way like Vanitas was would be able to summon and control Unversed, because its a fact of the universe, not plot powers ahh yay slicing skyscrapers.

[Raid Controller]

Addendum: I'd like to note that accepting the Emblem Heartless gatewaying into the rest of the canon is also dumb. We have Keyblades and other canon things, like, you can't pick and choose. Not opposed to not having them but I am opposed for it being for a reason that doesn't really make sense. Emblem heartless are a possibility within the universe, like Keyblades and Unversed. Anyone made in a way like Vanitas was would be able to summon and control Unversed, because its a fact of the universe, not plot powers ahh yay slicing skyscrapers.

Keyblades are an exception. We (for the moment) have absolutely no idea how or why they truly came to exist--only a muddled up fairy tale and possibly a mobile game that isn't even part of the main canon. You can make THAT up and it would still make sense because nobody PRESENTLY has an answer for it.

There are many, many other holes where there is no other explanation other than canonicity.
Corridors of Darkness were first knowingly rendered by Master Xehanort. You can't bring up Kingdom Hearts X [Chi] as an exception because as it stands, the story of [Chi] is an envisioning of the tale of the Keyblade Wars and is in fact NOT part of the canon. ....not that you acknowledge it in the first place, but still.
King Mickey singlehandedly invented the Gummi Ship, which he used to travel to Radiant Garden after the events of BBS: Travel beforehand considered impossible unless you were a Keyblade Warrior, later passed down to Ansem and later on Cid, who then passes it on to Sora.
Apprentice Xehanort (and in turn, Master Xehanort) discovered the secrets to the Door to Darkness and in that discovery, also reveal the nature of the Door to Light.
The END of the WORLD, literally an entire planet, was formed by Xehanort's Heartless, made from the worlds swallowed by the Heartless (most common type of Heartless? Again, Emblem, which were manufactured by...him, inadvertently.) . It vanishes after his destruction and is never mentioned or seen again.
Vanitas is a unique case--because Ventus was a unique case. Vanitas's Unversed are NEVER mentioned or seen ever again because they manifested from his emotion and his presence. Once he was gone, it was game over and they never reappeared. We can generally assume the only reason Vanitas was even able to spawn the Unversed is simply because of the sheer strength of Ventus's heart--both his light and his dark sides were extremely potent.

You can't pick and chose which lore aspects you want and then NOT have explanations for them. That's not creating a flowing narrative and I'll be buggered if anybody's going to be able to follow something as needlessly complex as that.

You're literally saying no on in space time and beyond could ever create this phenomenon. No human experience is truly unique - everything can be replicated, by chance or choice. Someone else in this universe could pursue them IC if they are decided not to exist and, if they don't exist by the lore (that we don't follow anyway bc its an AU), create them (if they don't exist because site doesn't want them then they do, in fact, become an impossibility).

I am saying that. I'm saying that because from what we're aware, it's VERY true. What we as an audience have been presented with, is that there is no other way for the Emblem Heartless to have been created OTHER than Master Xehanort's interference. No other known world had a science program NEAR to what Radiant Garden had. Ansem the Wise was the only known person to be doing any manner of research on the Heart at the period of time the website states we are in.
According to all of you, there is no Ansem the Wise, there is no Terra, and there is no Xehanort. With that being said, all of the essential pieces, and therefore the research, doesn't exist either. Nobody is entering that field of research at this time. Which means...there's no Emblem Heartless.

That's the bottom line.
You can't pick and choose what's there in the lore and what's not. Bear in mind that WITHOUT the Emblem Heartless you are looking at a very dull, very disappointing lineup of NPC enemies to fight...because the amount of Pureblood Heartless is relatively tiny compared to their marked counterparts. I only know this because of the three days I spent compiling them, and now looking back I am *SO* glad I didn't have to do all those Dream Eaters... >_>

Whether or not Emblem Heartless exist is up to the whim of the owner. If it's been decided they exist, then they exist. Your preference is just that.

As a precedent, in an attempt to create an experience, mechanics supersede canon. The only canon that matters is the canon established within this universe.  

Also, keep in mind, what you consider interesting and dynamic may be considered bland and poorly executed by others, but opinions are irrelevant.

It's not a preference. It's relevantly straight-forward, simplistic thinking. Again, you can't pick all the chocolate chips out of your cookie and expect it not to fall apart. Either eat the whole cookie or prepare to get a messy tabletop, because there's gonna be crumbs.
I think we can all agree we can do better than crumbs.
The only real canon you've managed to establish is there's a guy named Magi with no motivations or background to speak of. That's next to nothing in terms of where the boundaries are set.

"But Pinky there ARE no boundaries, that's what makes it amazing! We can do this, and this, and people can do this..."
Yeah, no. That's not how that works. There has to be an established set of what you can and can't do, or else you're going to have EXACTLY the sort of thing that made "you know where" such a mess; People didn't adhere to canonicity save in personality, and even then it was just barely. I can openly admit as *part* of the origin problem, that if you do that, you're gonna have a bad time.
Part of those rules have a lot to do with what you establish in your lore. If you don't have a lore that's relatively easy to follow (which is not to say at ALL that Kingdom Hearts is by all means easy to follow, thanks DDD), how in the name of Ra do you expect people to know where the boundaries are?
They won't. I'm pretty sure most of you don't even know yourselves. That's going to be an issue if it's not cleared up.

There's not a character in the series I don't personally find interesting. You could literally do a biography on Olette and I would be pleased to see it. That's what makes great stories great. It's what keeps people waiting six years for the next numbered installment of a franchise. Square has the unique ability to make you LIKE (or in the case of 13 according to the majority of people who played it, absolutely fucking hate,) the people and places and situations it creates. The complexity and diversity of the worlds, people, and events they forged are the main attraction for bringing people to places like this. Cutting bits and pieces of it and gluing it onto something is not going to work as well as you all are hoping it will.

I am having the strangest feeling of deja-vu right now.

[Ophelia]

Well uhhhh

Not here to argue canon as I'm more interested in seeing/playing out how things work out for heartless here I guess I'll post an opinion on what I think of the changes... They're going to effect my character sooooo

Pureblood Heartless:

Emblem Heartless:

As for Seeker's... Which I think myself and Lenny would fall under... I think?

I'm cool with the other stuff but I don't like the combination element idea.
I don't get why this would happen and I think it leaves us pretty limited... Like hazaar! I can make an avalanche... Also I can control wildfires but I can't control wind or fire on its own(well)?
Its kind of fun going through the elements and having to choose wisely as to whether or not I'd choose primals/advanced elements to make a combination element. Also it would suck to become a seeker from a somebody and have your elements changed just like that.

I think that's all that really bugs me about the changes... obviously because they effect me but whatever... Yeah.

[Game Master]

Well, I suppose I will have final say.

This is a community thread discussing a mechanics and function of Heartless on site. This is not a community thread discussing Heartless and their place in the lore, or at least it wasn't. And it is going to stop being that, because I'll be perfectly blunt: my preference supersedes canon.

Emblem Heartless exist because I want them to exist. They have a justified existence, but I'm not willing to spoil what happened yet. It's a mystery to be revealed or uncovered by the members. If you're asking questions, go get your answers. In character. But I'm not spoiling an entire planned plot arc because you want an explanation in a public forum.

It's the same deal with Castle Oblivion. It's same deal with the Datascape. Neither of these things should exist yet.

It's the same deal as Heartless. They weren't supposed to exist in the Realm of Light either at this point in time.

It's the same deal as End of the World and The World that Never Was. They shouldn't exist yet, but they do. More over as I've already explained to Main Core Ophelia, End of the World for some odd reason has exact duplicates of areas of the Destiny Island areas, like it did in KHI. That's really weird, given what we know about End of the World.

Keyblade Unions shouldn't exist, and there should be even fewer Keybladers than there are. But they do exist, and while there still aren't a lot of them they are definitely more plentiful.

But, its been accounted for. We didn't spend months planning and developing a site only to come out of beta without a cohesive plot behind everything. I understand your lack of faith. But, the time we've invested in coming up with what not only staff but a few other members on site (who happened to overhear) have considered fairly interesting (though comments have been made that Magi only exists so he can accomplish a vague purpose) will override the nitpicks of a single individual.

In addition, there are at least three others who don't think it matters, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Beyond that, everybody else rides the wave of adventure and can't wait to see what we cook up and show them. You might have more fun if you rode with them.

This topic has been thoroughly derailed from it's intended purpose. As a result, it will be locked and split into two topics this morning. One topic will be clearly labeled as a discussion of the mechanical function of Heartless. The other topic will be a place for people to freely critique their existence within our version of the Kingdom Hearts lore, and if they so choose speculate how they've come into existence.

I will be quoting Ophelia's post in my re-post of this topic, and I will address her concerns in my arbitrary fashion.

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